Wireless networking

[ohraz]

Hey guys
Im just moving down the road from my work
and i was thinking of putting a wireless network up so i can use works fast internet

what do u all thinki would need?
im about 700-900 meters away (as the bird flys) from work
I was thinking 802.11b networking
but is there anything else?





Thanks

[Agent666]

hate to break it to you but that sort of distance aint going to work with 802.11b or a or g ... max usable distance is maybe 100m if you are lucky with no obsticles...

other options include moving closer;)... or getting a fibre channel NIC for each end and burying a cable at side of road;)... both of which maybe a little impractical.....

or maybe a VPN connection....?

[ohraz]

yeah i was thinking that puttting amodem in the server and just dialing up... but then ii only get 56k

oh well looks like im stuck in behind a rock and a hard place


maybe i should connect to the 802.11b network in chch

[Tiggerz]

You might want to look into a a+b unit, can use the a for local stuff, and the b for the distance.

You will also need an ariel and signal booster and probably direct line of sight.

I understand the aussies are into all this kind of stuff, so hit the old web to see how its done.

Personally I wouldn't bother with the expense, it would be cheaper to make a dial in connection to your works server.

[ktulu]

I've seena couple of DIY units (made out of pringle cans and the likes)... that have a range of a few kilometers. Have a look on the web (can't be that hard to make if an Aussie can do it) :D

[ohraz]

i was reading this site http://www.yobbo.co.nz/
i might just join there network
it might be easyer

[Wibber]

easy as pie to do, just dont point the yagi at any kids, unless you want a good laugh...j/k

[Gh0s7 L3mUr]

Originally posted by ohraz
i was reading this site http://www.yobbo.co.nz/
i might just join there network
it might be easyer

damn yeah. That looks sweet. Depending on where I move I would definitely be keen on joining. Only six users at the moment but it's got to grow, how can it not. Would anyone object to 11Mb/s leaching/gaming???

[Sydog]

Moose from Neuron was planning on doing something similar except covering the whole of CHCH, he needs a fair few (eg over 30 subscribers) to make it profitable and it'll cost around $30 a month. But if the interest is there he may still be interested

[varkk]

What sort of bandwidth and ping times would you belooking at there? and I'd be willing to pay a bit for a good wireless type connection, especially when you consider you don't need to pay for phoneline and/or DSL connection

[Agent666]

the fact is that the 2.4ghz band is used for cordless phones and microwaves also emit radiation at that freq... so I would imagine people will get ****ed off if interference one way or another comes from either party..... I dont know but it sounds like a pretty far out idea.....

[archangel]

Saw on Slashdot the other day some research team doing weather balloon stuff were getting distances on over 300kb with 802.11b

[ktulu]

Originally posted by Agent666
the fact is that the 2.4ghz band is used for cordless phones and microwaves also emit radiation at that freq... so I would imagine people will get ****ed off if interference one way or another comes from either party..... I dont know but it sounds like a pretty far out idea.....

well these wireless communities are sprouting up all over the world... do I'm sure people will find a way around it.

[Gh0s7 L3mUr]

Originally posted by Sydog
Moose from Neuron was planning on doing something similar except covering the whole of CHCH, he needs a fair few (eg over 30 subscribers) to make it profitable and it'll cost around $30 a month. But if the interest is there he may still be interested

Why pay $30pm when you can get it for free. Sure there'll be teething problems. But ain't that g33k speak for added bonus. Who learns anything by everything working perfectly?

[mird-OC]

i'm assuming that 30 bucks would include internet access aswell? if so i'd be keen....

[cadmax]

Originally posted by Gh0s7 L3mUr
Why pay $30pm when you can get it for free. Sure there'll be teething problems. But ain't that g33k speak for added bonus. Who learns anything by everything working perfectly?


i'm all with u :D (that sounds like my kind of fun)



dos some one know if it would go overe hills ? (dont think so )

i'm not paying $200,000 for a ADSL :mad: +$25 per 4 weeks

[mird-OC]

nah AFAIK it's line-of-sight sorta stuff.

[Wibber]

you need pretty fricken powerfull anything to go through hills!

its line of sight, but thier is a node on the hill, where you live?

I'll join too lemur, when I get a job and can once again afford to buy things

[Control_Phreak]

check out the site in this article (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/01/13/1222202&mode=thread&tid=126)

He setup a 2Mbps link using 802.11b @ 1km

Worth a look

[mird-OC]

woah that's pretty cool... intriguing even :)

[varkk]

Hmmm, maybe us chch OCNZ guys shouldset up somekindof wireless network around town between us

[/planting idea in the hope someone else helps to make it grow, so I can receive benefit]

[cadmax]

:D :D :D :D

I have had the best day in a long time
i have called the people @ http://www.yobbo.co.nz/ and thay side thay think it will be all go for about $2,000. so i think i'm getting 11Mb/s :D

+ i can get the stuff for cheep :D

[Agent666]

might want to wait till the 54mbps (802.11g) stuff reachs NZ in numbers then the price will drop a fair bit.....
over in the states at the moment and just picked up a linksys wrt54g ... for 130USD..... and a 54mbps PCI card for like 70USD ...
heres the sexy beast

[Agent666]

its not 11 mb/s its 11mbits... usable speed usaully 5-6mbits.. ~~400-500k/s with full signal strength

[cadmax]

well it's a hell of a lot better that 56k (2.5-3kb/s)

[Gh0s7 L3mUr]

Originally posted by cadmax
well it's a hell of a lot better that 56k (2.5-3kb/s)

Hell it's better than Jetstream. :D

[cadmax]

Originally posted by Gh0s7 L3mUr
Hell it's better than Jetstream. :D

;)
10 out of 10 for Gh0s7 L3mUr :D

well when i was talking about dsl (where i live) we were talking $200,000 to put it on + cost per munth !

so if it cost me $2000 to put on you work that out "CHEP":p

i'm all go has moos_nz looked in to this (would like so in put)

i would go with moos_nz if he was moveing_


hmm where has moos_nz been?

/gose looking for moos_nz to pm him ;)

[ohraz]

well u can buy the cheap hardware from places like harvy normans
or go through www.yobbo.co.nz and u can get much more powerfull equiptment
about 500 i think for the set up



Ohraz

[tEsL4]

Hmm, i think that the problem that most of these 'home-grown' non-profit wireless grids have is that there's no actual internet access to speak of, its just an intranet. Sure its ok for gaming and local file transfers, but you still need internet access from somewhere! 56k? jetstart? please.
I'd like to see something set up with help from an isp (like Neuron is considering by the looks of it), where they provide bandwidth to the intranet as a whole - so it would be kind of like sharing a dsl internet connection, where the intranet computers use an internal ip range and all connect to a central router, which forwards packets out. I'm actually thinking of setting something like this up in Hamilton, but so far there hasn't been enough interest to make it viable :(

[Agent666]

even if the net connection is high speed the type of people who join I can imagine leeching the crap out of it which isnt going to make the ISP any money at all?.... would be damn excellent for multiplayer gaming within the intranet.... like going to a LAN but not leaving your house.....

[cadmax]

Originally posted by Agent666
even if the net connection is high speed the type of people who join I can imagine leeching the crap out of it which isnt going to make the ISP any money at all?.... would be damn excellent for multiplayer gaming within the intranet.... like going to a LAN but not leaving your house.....

ip depent dsl

only one ip can log in to it ;)

[ohraz]

well i have to look at it like this
if we get enough people in this
as something like 10 bucks a week
30 users
$300 per week so if you look at that way u might be able to get a internet connection nothing great,
but i wasn't thinking it for internet
just lanning was my idea and file sharing.
From what i heard there is only 6 users
and u can only have 2-3 people accessing each access point
so of everyone hooks on pay a fee to help pay for some more access points then more people can join in :)
That is my idea.

[-NiBbLeT-]

Originally posted by varkk
Hmmm, maybe us chch OCNZ guys shouldset up somekindof wireless network around town between us


I agree. But the hardware is a bit too much. It would create a much better community:D I have a little pamphlet about this that came with PC Authority. Even talked to SSnake about it as 'W3':D (Wireless/Wide Area Network), but he reckoned there was too much interference. Why on earth would they release a product so susceptible? It is actually very robust.

btw with yobbo etc where are the access points? I assume a network between people's house roofs? That could be doable with a map of people's locations etc

[ohraz]

The biggest access is on the port hills
it floods most of the area around the hills
ir ST maritins opawa etc

[Wibber]

none in town :(

[Eagle32]

Hey Ohraz ya fag :p

Funny I should see this thread just when im screwing around trying to setup a linux based AP on one of my machines for some experimentation with ranges/LoS requierments for best possible links

A few wireless sites i've found of interest:

http://nz.wireless.org.au/
http://flakey.info/ (some build guides for antennae)
http://hostap.epitest.fi/ (HostAP homepage?)
http://www.sorgonet.com/network/wirelessnoap/ (guide to setting up HostAP)
http://www.itee.uq.edu.au/~mesh//faq.html (FAQ for the Brisbane Mesh network tha contains lots of helpful info)
http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/DunWireless (.. the project seems idle atm)
http://www.80211-planet.com/tutoria...cle.php/1428941 (Article on the power level limitations placed on the 2.4GHz frequency used by wlan's... American article but the 1W limit still applies in NZ otherwise you must have licenses, the specifics of which i haven't investigated)
http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/ve3jf...e3jf.dcc97.html (Technical intro to radio wave propagation)


You can cover a fair distance with a direct los wireless link with a bit of amplification, there are laws regarding maximum power tho ;) Even with just directional antennas at each end a reasonable distance can be achieved. LoS doesn't just mean being able to see the other antenna either... there is an area around the direct LoS path tha should also be clear for the best signal. (cant remember what the areas called).

I'd personally prefer to see Community Wireless networks stay as just that.. Community networks run by members of the community for free with NO internet access through them. As soon as you add internet access you have to start charging for it, internet bandwidth just isn't free. I suppose you could allow someone to provide internet access through the network comercially but I would say it would be difficult without comercialising (good god i cant spell) the whole network due to the QoS issues. ie if someones paying for net access through the wireless network but they have to go through a couple of nodes to get to the node that provides the access and one of the inbetween nodes is down they're going to want it going again. but if its a free community node the person running it isn't going to nesercerily put it back up again in any kind of a hurry.

Originally posted by ohraz
and u can only have 2-3 people accessing each access point


Thats just some misinfomation you've got they're, hardware AP's you can buy can handle a hell of a lot more connections than that. ditto for a linux based AP using a standard pci/pcmcia wireless card.

Or maybe that was in reference to the more complex issue of inter-node connectivity as well as connectivity from individual clients. I won't get into that tho as I still don't know what the best way to go about it is ;)

[ohraz]

Eagle ya OMO
i think he can only handle 2-3 people is
this is still in testing stages
maybe when he sorts out all the bugs
he might get better hardware
who knows
he knows more than me :P


Ohraz

[sIg]

ive been talking to a mate of mine and he runs a wireless isp
helix.net.nz ( who is also hopefully hosting the OCNZ game server )
and he says you can get decent speeds at about 6km from the acess points im just tryping to convince him to come to welly :p

[cadmax]

Originally posted by sIg
he says you can get decent speeds at about 6km from the acess points :p

hmmm well i'm about 50km from it :rolleyes:

[ohraz]

he has had one working find over 26k :)

[henrym]

NZ Wireless Communities:

http://nz.wireless.org.au/
http://www.nzwireless.org/
http://yobbo.co.nz/WirelessCommunity.htm
http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/DunWireless


Courtesy of the Wireless Communities index (http://www.personaltelco.net/index.cgi/WirelessCommunities).

[CrazySurfaNZ]

Something to note about the 54mbps 802.11a spec is that it uses a higher frequency than the public 2.4ghz.. it uses somehting like 4.8ghz and while that isnt a problem in itself.. being a higher frequency is... because it is more susceptible to trees and stuff in the way... so although you might be able to get a higher speed.. its harder to get a connection cos it cant handle interference as much as 802.11b.

Also.. 802.11b you can get double speed stuff now running at 22mbps... so that could be worth looking into.

[Agent666]

802.11a (54mbps) is quite a bit more expensive... and not compatible with 802.11b since as you pointed out it uses a different freq.
802.11g (54mbps) is coming online now at a draft stage anyway.... and is fully compatible with 802.11b (11mbps, 22mbps)
If you are thinking of going wireless then wait till the Wireless G stuff hits NZ as the Wireless B stuff will diffinately become a bit more affordable.... hopefully this wont be to long since it is pretty widely available over here in the states at the moment. About 2-3 companies have become early adopters for the wireless G...

Originally posted by CrazySurfaNZ
Something to note about the 54mbps 802.11a spec is that it uses a higher frequency than the public 2.4ghz.. it uses somehting like 4.8ghz and while that isnt a problem in itself.. being a higher frequency is... because it is more susceptible to trees and stuff in the way... so although you might be able to get a higher speed.. its harder to get a connection cos it cant handle interference as much as 802.11b.

Also.. 802.11b you can get double speed stuff now running at 22mbps... so that could be worth looking into.

[WirelessWarLord]

Hi Guys

Mat from the yobbo wireless community.

Please feel free to e-mail wireless@yobbo.co.nz for indervidual solutions.

The repeaters are only 802.11b format for the following resaons:

Its is the cheapest equipment to experiment with.


The cards we have are 200mW output, and on 15dB yagi antenna, we are on the legeal limit in emitting RF in the 2.4GHz band. 4W Effective Isotropically Radiated Power (EIRP).

The bandwidth & frequ means we can link up to 40km from Cashmere Hill in CHCH.

802.11g - uses more bandwidth, gives shorter links, OK for shorter links, have not played with any yet.

We are now looking at 802.11a 5.8GHz for backbone linking, but at $1500-$2000 per link... any donations, lol


Belive it or not - There is free internet at the moment on the yobbo wireless community. There is now a 2 & 11MB interent pipes we are now testing, supplying free interenet, for now. We are looking for more users to test this. It is up and down as we are unable to control the bandwidth over the wireless with P2P sharing software. But do not worry about that, as we are working on it.

Depending were you are will depend on the type of setup you will need.

I tested as site today near the repeater in Sumerfield, near the bottem of the Cashmere Hills for those that do not know.

It is about 1-1.5KM away from the repeater on Cashmere.

The user had made a Pringles Can antenna, after a seting up the laptop on his shed roof, we found that we got a 40% signal with just a 1/4 wave diapole( small bit of copper wire about 30mm in lenght soldered to an N-Type socket connector).

The Pringles Can assembly reduced the signal strength.

It looked like he had spent a couple of hours on it as well as the research etc behind it.

Where as on Thursday, I was site testing 40kms away, and I needed my 25db Parabolic Dish to receive a 40% signal. Not to bad as we were holding the dish on the roof of the car. :)

Now, I am not knocking making your own antenna, but you need to be aware that the 2.4GHz freq devices are manufactured to 0.2mm. Go for it and make your own antenna, but it has to be build with RF manufacturing practises in mind to work properly. Sometimes it is easyer to just buy the bl**dly antenna.

We have played with wireless USB cards remote mounted. (straped in a plastic click clack box to the back of an antenna) Cheaper way to go, use USB repeaters if over 6-8M from your antenna to your PC

http://www.yobbo.co.nz/DIY.htm

PCI cards in the PC with anything from 4 -10M of low loss coax from your PC to the antenna. An average users install.


AP unit's can also be remote mounted on the back of antenna's. Run a power & lan cable to the AP or power over lan. This and the USB option will give the best signal stregnth as the coax is very short giving less resistance.

I think I have said enough, but as I mentioned at the start, please feel free to e-mail us @ wireless@yobbo.co.nz for any information.

Sorry if we do not get back to you stright away, but if you do not hear from us, e-mail again asking for a F%$K'N reply.

Matt
wireless@yobbo.co.nz

[Oblivian]

I'm about ready too hook up.

(Fellow by QE2 that has treetops in way :/) Seeing its autumn ish I've made more positive moves in the hope the trees are not so dense. Not shifted antenna just yet, but got a cable run and 200mW card ready and waiting. Just sourcing some r-mmcx + rp-SMA to finish a pigtail then I'm in.

[varkk]

Hmm, your not too far from me. Tell me what kind of speeds you get out there please.

[WirelessWarLord]

Test to Ashley, on the hill with line of site to Cashmere in CHCH.

I have speeds of 80kbps in the past. We have not setup a long link like this before so there will be a bit of experimenting to go.

At the time, the antenna in CHCH was not lined properly and the past test was the antenna just sitting on the roof of the car. We were just looking for a suitable site to set something up for long term testing. So if anyone knows of land that has line of site to CHCH, Rangiroa & Oxford, please e-mail wireless@yobbo.co.nz

Matt

[krnage]

I thought id post here then starting up a new one,

anway - i hear there is a standard not sure if what one though that is not really good?

Can anyone tell me - im thinking about going wireless for home,
and looking at the D-Link DWL-2000AP (11g +2.4ghz) is this ok?
Or do i stay away from 2.4ghz stuff and move to 5ghz or vice versa?

Thanks

[Agent666]

802B and 802G both work on the 2.4ghz spectrum.......

802A works on the 5Ghz spectrum....... and as such is prone to less interference......

A is a lot more expensive though.... expect to pay twice if not more for the privledge......

B or G will work fine .... based on the same tech just one is 11mbit/s and the other 54mbit/s ........ but reallife performance is about half that.

[krnage]

thanks - makes a lot of sense now :D and i could understand it :p

[ktulu]

I can watch the signal drop off when the microwave is turned on with my 802.11b network (same frequency range). I'd say wait for the 5GHz gear to get a bit cheaper.

[krnage]

Cool - yeah might just do that. Hopefully temptation doesnt take over though :p