multi-stage pelts...

[Volodkovich]

hey,
was wondering if n e one knew what they are? wot ever they are there alot more efficent than a standard pelt - dt's up to 140degrees...
also, i was wondering about the power rating of pelts...a 172watt pelt has a max of 24.6volts and 11.3amps. Using P=VI, it should be rated at 24.6 x 11.3 = 277,98 watts...n e help???
cheerz

[Deviant]

I bet it's just back to back pelts, with a smaller one on the front.

Pelts are terribly in-efficient, the 172W is the theorectical cooling efficiency, but I don't recon you get anywhere near that. I'm guessing 150W with water cooling on the back.

So yea, 150 watts cooling, and creating 300 watts of heat + 100 from the CPU, that 400 watts of cooling required.

[mird-OC]

i'm not 100% sure but i'm thinking along the lines of what Deviant said... i'm pretty sure i've heard of stacked peltiers being referred to as multi-stage.

[Tojja]

Both correct, AFAIK - also, the diff between 172W and the 277W is the innefficiency coming into play

[Volodkovich]

hmmm, stacked eh...??? I reckon stacking pelts is a waste of time...i mean, sure u get better cooling but at the cost of a hella alot of power...

[p01s0n_p1e]

ok vdkvch
tell em what your planning. its so god damn insane :rolleyes: .
i suggest you buy a pc first though, then you can start dreaming about cooling :p

[Volodkovich]

first of all, im buying my cooling first...then gettin the pc - that way i wont have a old pos pc OCed to the max...
hmm, i dunno if i really wanna give away my secret...

[City_Idiot]

Man spill ya guts cos you're going to need all the help you can get ay, you're dealing with some sh*t that can be dangerous and you're walking into as good as blind

[Volodkovich]

lol....jeez man...actually phase change isnt all that hard...
n e way...wot im planning to do is have quad 172watt pelts on a HIGHLY OCed AXIA t-bird...the hot side will be cooled by homemade phasechange..mainly made out of a old freezer..It mite be overkill, but implanning to get it up and past 1.8ghz...

[mird-OC]

quad 172w peltiers? dude, me thinks you gots too much money :)

but i'm looking forward to the results anyway :D

[KingJackal]

Too much money? No - I believe we talking to 'go on about what hardware I'm going to get, but never actually get it' Volodkovich :p.

( He said it, not me - yes, I read all.... ;) :D )

Dude, Quad 172W pelts? As in over $600 worth of peltiers alone? And you'd need a good $400 worth of gear to remove all that heat - so call it a grand of cooling?

ON A $200 CPU??? :confused:

$1200 for a CPU that'll max out well below 2GHz? FFS - spend your money ( IF you actually have any ) on something worth it, like a Thoroughbred XP2500+ ( when they come out next week ), and some normal water cooling.

Probably about $1200 all up, but it should FLY past 2GHz, AND outperform the AXIA any day of the week.....

....you have some weird idea's....

....either that or you can get peltiers d@mn cheap....
:D

[I.R]

Originally posted by Volodkovich
lol....jeez man...actually phase change isnt all that hard...
n e way...wot im planning to do is have quad 172watt pelts on a HIGHLY OCed AXIA t-bird...the hot side will be cooled by homemade phasechange..mainly made out of a old freezer..It mite be overkill, but implanning to get it up and past 1.8ghz...

Dood that is way too much cooling..... the phase change alone will be more that adequate...... spose it depends on what type of freezer you've got but a Vapochill gets to -12°C and that's only got a 12V compressor :eek:
With a phase change quad pelts and a voltage mod (to get to 1.8Gig) you're gonna need some serious power :eek:

[Tojja]

the voltage of the compressor isn't the key determining factor in cooling performance, so no worries there - it IS based on the Wattage (pretty much) however

[I.R]

You been doin some research eh;)

[Tojja]

No comment

[mird-OC]

well here's a phase-change system cooling a AXIAR-Y tbird 1.2GHz to be able to run stable @ 1733MHz @ 2.3V... no peltiers...

http://server39.hypermart.net/xoverclocker/axiar4.html

[Deviant]

You need some good equipment to make up special parts if your trying quad pelts, like special waterblock and clip, and a very expensive power supply, on that can do 80 amps at 15 volts give or take some.

[I.R]

How the hell would you attach 4 pelts to an evaporator and then attach to the chip??? :confused:
That's almost as silly as my "submerge just the CPU in non-conductive fluid" idea :p

[Deviant]

Originally posted by I.R
How the hell would you attach 4 pelts to an evaporator and then attach to the chip??? :confused:
That's almost as silly as my "just submerge the CPU in non-conductive fluid" idea :p

Yes but submerging a whole PC has been done before, and so has quad pelts, have a look at this:

http://www.overclockers.com/tips1003/

[Volodkovich]

yea..ive found a PSU, 120amps 24volts for about $100us in america, aswell as pelts from america - there about half the price of them here...and dont say about how much shipping is gonna cost...im gonna ground ship them, with some other bits and pieces.
Im gettin the Compressor and condesnser off a freezer, just modifying the condenser from a single row, real big, to 3 or 4 rows, and alot shorter...gonna have some fans blowing on it aswell.
As for attaching it to a cpu...i plan to have a coldplate at the bottom, sandwiching pelts, then another coldplate, half housing the homemade evaporator. I have the program that tells u how many psi u are clamping, you just need to put it then size of the area and the pitch of the thread of the bolts u are using. All this will fit in a homemade cube server case, which will have a purpose built attachment mechanism...ohh, and also im using a t-bird coz its cheap..lol...i'll get a t-bred when they come down in price later on and see how high i get that...AND THEN ON TO THE MIGHTY 0.09micron CLAWHAMMER...see a t-bred may be fast now..but in 6months it wont be...yet the cooler will be around for a while...well worth how much it will cost me, me thinks...maybe 3 years or so of fast OCed cpu's.

[p01s0n_p1e]

dude
your ****ing crazy. it will be cheaper ground shipping...but geez...

[mird-OC]

not to mention what your power bill will be like! LOL!! you certainly won't need a heater in your room with that thing in it either :)

but good luck man. more power to j00 :)

[Volodkovich]

heh, i estimate like over $50 a month...i wont run it all the time tho...just for games and so on..

[Volodkovich]

ohh, and deviant - i have all the equipment to make my case, aswell as my evaporator, and all the other stuff.

[GooGlo]

You are crazy. So is Ji Kuang!

[Deviant]

I see you have put more research and thought into this than others that just post an unreal dream.

For that, I'm sure many in this forum including myself will respect. Help and advice from us is free, and sometimes you will get even more. All we ask is a good story and some pics.

Post if you need any help, and I'm sure you will get plenty of replies. I look forward to hearing some more.

Best when you share these things, cause we can share your triumps and tribulations with you, and learn new things.

[Volodkovich]

lol, cheerz deviant...thats about the first real positive replys ive had, when i asked some stuff on the tekheads, and overclockers.com forums everyone just insults me and says theres no point, puts me down, and finds every little flaw in my idea...:(

[Volodkovich]

ohh, BTW. i think i have ditched the quad pelt idea...just to much $$$, aswell as i dont think my dad would want me drawing 1.5kW outta the power bill..
Having a stacked phase change system would be alot more efficent, aswell as prob only costing me under $100. It would get me down to around -120..(ive talked to ppl on the OC.com forums bout these) without costing me hundreds of dollars a month... A bit mroe bulky but, hey, i think it aint gonna be much bigger than that 120amp psu..lol

[Deviant]

How do you stack a phase change? Do you mean two systems, 2 cooling blocks, one on top of the other? Cause I don't think that will get temps down that far. 1 maybe -10, 2 maybe better and get -20, but I don't know, just guessing.

[I.R]

Two systems would very hard to get right... even if you just split the supply & return from the evaporators (and assuming both evaporators had the same pressure) you still only get the same amount of cooling as one evaporator...... both would at -30 or whatever your system could do..... however you would require more refrigerant for two evaporators than one ;)

[Gh0s7 L3mUr]

Originally posted by Deviant

All we ask is a good story and some pics.


Definitely pics :D

[Deviant]

I'm with IR, one with no load will get -30, put an athlon on it and it will probably only hold the chip at -10, thus with 2, it might hold it at -20, I should have explained better before, but I don't know how you will get -80.

[Volodkovich]

well, wat u do is have thr evaporator of system A cooling the chip, but on the condenser of A, u have the evaporator of B. This cools the condenser alot thus -120 degrees on the first evaporator. U can have several systems stacked...take up alot of space tho. people have stacked up to 3 that i know of..
The main problem with this is tuning it, with different wattage compressors etc. Im pretty sure the evaporator B has to be able to take the heat from the first one, + the chip + 50%. well thats wat i heard n e way. Any help?

[mird-OC]

hmmm interesting idea.. never heard of doing it before but i guess it makes sense.. although i'm still a little bit sceptical that it'd ever make it much below -50C, unless like you say, the "B" system is one mutha of a cooler.

[Volodkovich]

yea..thats my main problem...as i said - tuning it for max cooling power. I need to figure out which wattage compressors for each loop.

[I.R]

Where are you getting your compressors from..... as far as I know most freezers only have one...... but I have been wrong in the past ;)

*looks around for Humantuckshop* :eek:

[Volodkovich]

anywhere i can get them, probably end up being two freezer compressors of different wattages.
I.R. - ur rite freezers only have 1 compressor, i'll have to source 2 freezers :)

[HaydenNZ]

The key to getting lower temps are suction pressure, the higher the suction pressure on the input side of the compressor the lower the pressure drop will be and the more 'energy(thermal)' the refridgerant will try to 'absorb' - one way to get a higher suction pressure is by running 2 compressors in series...this is a very simple way to do it, My phase change setup consists of a 145watt compressor ( exrtremely weak ) ... the evap is in the resivour, -20 under full load ( celeron 800@1.2 .. ~40watts ) and -25 idle.. if you could get your self a low temp evap ~200 watt compressor, u'd be right.. or two :D - compressors are certinally a hell of a lot cheaper to run than peltiers. my compressor draws roughly 150ma ( 240volts of coarse ) which is roughly $5 a month..another thing i might add, dont bother with ripping compressors etc outta freezers, its just not practical, what u need is to make your own, refridgeration is very simple.

Compressor compresses the refridgerant..as a result it produces heat, because of its phase change from a gas(natural state) to a liquid, so we need a condenser (radatior, liquid refridgerant flows through this)..SOMETHING SUITIBLE, not a small pethetic little radiator, well it depends on your compressor, ill post some pics of mine shortly, as u can see its very small, cause its a very low powered compressor...Out of the Condensor, we have a accumulator..basically, its a buffer, also helps with the next part, going from high pressure to low pressure, this is were your phase change occurs, when the liquid reffirdgerant is taken from a high pressure side to the low pressure side it evaporates, and when it evaporates, its change state, adn want to ABSORB heat, so out of your accumulator you have a very small capillary tubing, very thin, less than 1mm Internal Diamator, this needs to be a suitible length, u really need the data on the compressor to work out the length, this then goes into your evaporator, where the gas is going from a 1mm I.D to a 15mm I.D .. high pressure ( 1mm ) to low pressure ( 15mm, hell of a lot more room for it to expand ) ... and as a result as above, it absorbs heat, then out of the evaporator u go back into the input side of your compressor ( suction, the key to low temperators )...That is the basics of refridgeration. its a ingenious idea, and who ever thought of it, certinaly wasent stupid.

1. Quad Peltiers = Crazy.
2. Trying to cool ~600watts(including electrical power, totel heat to dissipate..people that know about pelts will know what im talkinga bout, 172x4 doesnt = the heat output... + "Electrical Energy" ) of peltiers = CRAZY. ( we are talking 2 or 3 compressors, if u want to keep it cheap...or one big bad ass $300 compressor )
3. If you dont have access to the gear.. 1. a brain, 2. 2nd hand compressors ( ring applience repair shops, i can cruise down to a place down here and pick up 10 if i like, they have a pile of them, all working..r12..( hehe, also have access to all the gear, and r12 )
4. R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, R12, if possible.
5. R134a sux0rs.

If your still reading u can piss off now....mmmk?

I shell leave you with a few of the last lan pics ( only decent pic i have of my setup...my camera sucks ass. ) ... actaully they are too big :/

http://www.qualm2.orcon.net.nz/

As for the pics, showing my PC as raped..lets just say i had a little accident...few hundred millilitres of water when the fitting came off the pump and began pumping water into my case, not to mention water at -23C( first time i've ever had a single drop of water in my pc, for about the 8months its been water cooled, shattered, absolutly shattered, but shes all good now.)...I did manage to fix it tho...shes all good again...the white thing is the CPU incased in polystyrene for those wwho are a biiit slow.

[Tojja]

Nice haircut :)

[Volodkovich]

yah, haydenNZ, i know how phase change works. the only thing i dont have access to is R12, and the gear to extract, and put it in systems. Did u say go down to a appliance repair shop and i should be able to get some stuff?

[Tojja]

I should also have added that was a good summary there Hayden. Sorry about the haircut thing....

[Ice Czar]

cooling potentials
http://www.espec.com/features/newsletter/issue2.htm
cascade cooling vs LN2
http://www.sigmasystems.com/Techdoc/Executive_Summaries/ES_Cryo_vs_Mech.htm


stacking pelts not only eats alot of power, it dramatically increases the heat you have to transfer. And grows exponentially.

[HaydenNZ]

Originally posted by Tojja
I should also have added that was a good summary there Hayden. Sorry about the haircut thing....

yus, quite possibly time for a trim...

few suggestions..

1. sleep with one eye open.
2. lock all windows and doors
3. dont answer the phone
4. dont turn your back.

....you'll keep. :D

[HaydenNZ]

.yah, haydenNZ, i know how phase change works. the only thing i dont have access to is R12, and the gear to extract, and put it in systems. Did u say go down to a appliance repair shop and i should be able to get some stuff?

Not to mention the fact that R12 is illegal and most places wont fill andthing unless its been certified to be leak free, and most places wont say weither they have it not..

Your best bet to get compressors is applience repair places...make sure they work :D ... Getting a compressor is only going be helpful if your going to build a custom Phase Change system..need a acetylene torch etc, to get it all togeither.

I can get a **** load of free compressors they are all 145watts and they are all the same, about 15 of them lieing around...all working, problem is shipping em... 25-30kg..just a tad exspensive to courior :D ... i must say, phase change is very effeicent, it actaully produces more cooling than it absorbs in 'electrical power'

Good luck to j00 ryvoc

[Deviant]

Originally posted by HaydenNZ
phase change is very effeicent, it actaully produces more cooling than it absorbs in 'electrical power'


I'm no expert here, but if this were true, put one of these in an insulated room, take energy out of the air, produce more energies worth of cooling effect than it take to run the system, and have a fridge of freezer that cost nothing to run, can actually produce excess electricity for 3rd world countries. If it were a perfect insulated room, you could get below absolute zero and keep going, and use it to solve global warming.

Now that's some invention.

[I.R]

Originally posted by HaydenNZ
....all working, problem is shipping em... 25-30kg..just a tad exspensive to courior :D...

Man must be a pain to move that beast around :D

[KingJackal]

Originally posted by Deviant
I'm no expert here, but if this were true, put one of these in an insulated room, take energy out of the air, produce more energies worth of cooling effect than it take to run the system, and have a fridge of freezer that cost nothing to run, can actually produce excess electricity for 3rd world countries. If it were a perfect insulated room, you could get below absolute zero and keep going, and use it to solve global warming.

Now that's some invention.

Hmmmm - my thermodynamics knowledge is ringing train crossing bells too.... hmmm.... :D

Somehow, I DON'T think so - unless of course electricity isn't it's only means of energy.

*imagines Hayden_NZ stashing a reactor or two in his huge bong*
:D

[Tojja]

guys, come on - we have just witnessed the inception of perpetual motion :)

Man I gotta lot of keeping to do ;)

[HaydenNZ]

Originally posted by Deviant


I'm no expert here, but if this were true, put one of these in an insulated room, take energy out of the air, produce more energies worth of cooling effect than it take to run the system, and have a fridge of freezer that cost nothing to run, can actually produce excess electricity for 3rd world countries. If it were a perfect insulated room, you could get below absolute zero and keep going, and use it to solve global warming.

Now that's some invention.

I think your somewhat confused, Taking energy out of the air? I was refering to phase change systems as being 'electrically' effiecent, rather than peltiers.. eg, a 172watt peltier will only MOVE 172watts of heat, BUT it produces just over 400watts of heat when ran at its full voltage. 172watts of cooling...the other 228watts is just pure wastage heat that needs to be relocated, phase change for instance, it takes 145watts of electrical energy to run a 145watt compressor, and the compressor is able to relocate ~145 watts of heat from the evaporater to the Condensor, near 100% effiecent, In the above posts, i was refering to the effiency of compressors against peltiers...peltiers have a hell of a lot waste energy, given off as heat.
Originally posted by HaydenNZ


i must say, phase change is very effeicent, it actaully produces more cooling than it absorbs in 'electrical power'


Possibly a better choice of words, it doesnt ABSORB electrical energy from the surronding air as devient may think...By absorb, i mean Consume, eg, 240volts@200ma ... for a 145watt
compressor.

Originally posted by Tojja
guys, come on - we have just witnessed the inception of perpetual motion :)

Man I gotta lot of keeping to do ;)

And now im confused. :$

[Ice Czar]

Originally posted by Tojja
guys, come on - we have just witnessed the inception of perpetual motion :)

Man I gotta lot of keeping to do ;)


Originally posted by HaydenNZ



And now im confused. :$

Tojja is refering to the 2nd law of Thermodynamics
which is immutable

1ST LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS : TOTAL ENERGY OF THE UNIVERSE IS CONSTANT.

2ND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS : ALL PHYSICAL AND CHEMICAL PROCESSES TEND TO PROCEED FROM A STATE OF ORDER TO A STATE OF DISORDER.

Im not shouting just cutting and pasting and being lazy
:rolleyes:

there is no perpetual motion


"the action of a device that, once set in motion, would continue in motion forever, with no additional energy required to maintain it. Such devices are impossible on grounds stated by the first and second laws of thermodynamics"

- Encyclopedia Britannica

[mird-OC]

i always wondered why they no one has ever mentioned building a really tall generator on the north pole and attach a really long cable to an orbiting satellite to spin a turbine and generate power! infact they could do one at the north pole and one at the south pole... :rolleyes:

[I.R]

Shhh mird...... don't post things like that :mad: The oil companies will come and get you :eek:

[Deviant]

Haven't they tried sucessfully powering satilities with coils that have power induced into them by the rotating earths magnetic field. Of course no good for geostationary satilities, and they may as well use solar panels anyway.

[Ice Czar]

Yes ;) just remembered no links :(
just add http:// in front of these

science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/proseds/tether1.jpg

science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast15oct98_1.htm

science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast15oct96_1.htm