Linux Gaming [Archive] - Overclockers NZ Forums

KingJackal

01-06-2002, 08:50 PM

*puts on asbestos suit*

My reasoning is simple. How can dozens of developers scattered around the globe, working in spare hours voluntarily ever hope to surpass a dedicated team of paid developers whose product is their job?

Microsoft will always be 5 steps ahead. What are Linux developers doing? Are they catching up? No, they are moving at the same speed.

Don't get me wrong, the inclusion of DirectX for the 'nix based platforms and the developement of better drivers for hardware in these systems can only be a good thing.

BUT, the inclusion of DirectX is only copying what Microsoft did years ago. Are they including DirectX 9? NO. Are they researching new standards to integrate into common graphics APIs, and hence stearing the development of real-time multimedia systems? NO. Are they able to provide the cash to buy the patents/licenses/code for key technological breakthroughs? NO. Are they able to actually inovate rather than just emulate what Microsoft have already released? Not really.....

Yes, gaming support in Linux will improve. But no, I do not believe that free source software is the way of the future for the mainstream.

At the end of the day, businesses need the security in knowing that they have 24/7 technical support. That there is a dedicated base of coders ironing out bugs for them, and improving compatibility between their hardware, and the software they run today, and in the future.

Linux will remain the domain of the g33k, the enthusiast, and the paranoid for the foreseeable future. And I'm not being pesimistic.

Comments? :D

Viper_NZ

01-06-2002, 09:13 PM

KJ that's harsh, that's nasty... So many hopes and dreams shattered in one foul blow...

NEXT YOU'LL BE TELLING ME SANTA DOESN'T EXIST!!!!

*mutters*

Gh0s7 L3mUr

01-06-2002, 09:13 PM

Originally posted by SilverPriest
Ahh, you would be i_morpheus off the old forums?

mwahahaha :D

It was actually good timing the forum went down when it did, as I have been wanting to change my name for a while but couldn't find a way of doing it without reregistering.

The Q3A pack actually comes with a trial version of SuSE. Haven't tried it yet, think I'm too much of a n00b to go there just yet.

*looks over at teh Slackware... "Be patient my little friend"* :D

Viper_NZ

01-06-2002, 09:27 PM

I've always had consistently better frame rates from Linux UT and Q3A than the windows counterparts.. :D

Now if only they released a Linux version of CS... come on, they've ported the server!!!

p01s0n_p1e

01-06-2002, 09:27 PM

Thx for teh account m8! :D But anyway, Linux will become superior for gaming simply because its open source nature means that it will have millions of people adding to and fixing it, 24 hours a day, voluntarily, unlike the engineers at M$ working 8 hour days for profit. People who are working for fun will generally produce better quality work than people working for dosh, because they're only doing it because they like it, and theres no purpose for them doing it if they're not doing it well.
The paid programmers on the other hand can do just enough to still get paid, because they're doing it to get paid not to do it well.
Besides, everyone hates M$ (:D), and its cool to run Linux!

Am I making sense? No I didn't think so.

*Looks at p01s0n_p1e playing Snow Board Kids and shakes head sadly*

Ill post something more readible when I get home.

varkk

01-06-2002, 09:52 PM

Well I can see M$ doing something with ltheir big legal team, like when people started making compatibilty layers to allow MS office to run, the added a clause to their license agreement which basically said it was only allowed to be run on MSwin, I can perhaps insisting that developers using directx have to include some thing about only using the product on mswin and not on linux...although if the industry will put up with it remains to be seen.

Also as more people start using linux more game developers will start to put products out for it, and they may even move away from directx altogether, openGL is better than direct3d anyway :p

*sees flamethrowers charging at me and runs for the hills*

KingJackal

01-06-2002, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by p01s0n_p1e
But anyway, Linux will become superior for gaming simply because its open source nature means that it will have millions of people adding to and fixing it, 24 hours a day, voluntarily, unlike the engineers at M$ working 8 hour days for profit. People who are working for fun will generally produce better quality work than people working for dosh, because they're only doing it because they like it, and theres no purpose for them doing it if they're not doing it well.

haha - where do I start.....

OK:

1) millions of dev's for Linux.

No, you obviously don't know what you're talking about there. Last time I looked at the stats, the number of dev's working on most distibutions is in the double digits. And I don't mean the high end. Many Linux distro's are only maintained by 10-20 core developers.

2) millions of dev's is a good thing.

The easy way to say it:
too many cooks spoil the broth.

The technical way ( straight out of my 3rd year software engineering training ):
The version control systems available for such a large number of concurrent users in any systems are beyond the current capabilities of the software community.

Millions of concurrent users? You would have to re-define the capabilities of real-time source code manipulation. IT... just... woudn't... work....

3) MS devs working 8 hour days.

Nope, wrong again. They generally work 16 hour days. If you ever move up the software industry, you'll find that one of the principle reasons there is so much money involved, is because there is so much work involved. Most Microsoft employees would laugh at a 60 hour week.

4) Happy people produce better code.

?? Aye ??
Who says MS emplyees aren't happy? I'd be pretty d@mn chuffed if I was earning what they often do. Work yourself to death for a couple decades, then retire early - it's the Microsoft way :D.

5) MS emplyees will only appear to be working.

With so much potential for large bonuses? With a dynamic, pressure cooker atmosphere that drives coders to live their assigned modules? I think not.

6) These 'millions' are just as skillful as any MS dev.

No. Large-scale software developement needs dedicated and highly trained management. It also requires coders committed to the quality and testing of every method they create.

7) Linux dev's work for free.

No. Most of the larger distributions manage to pay their staff ( albeit not much ) by the proceeds of their packaged retail versions, and from donations.

Did you honestly think a dev could live off no income? So what, now Linux is dole-funded? The MS dev's tax pay's the Linux dev.

HAHAHAHAHHAAAA

Dude, you need to re-think a few key areas.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

mird-OC

01-06-2002, 10:27 PM

linux is the future, no doubt. the whole linux institution is, and has been for a number of years, moving from a large group of enthusiasts twiddling around in their spare time, into a tightly run, profitable, efficient, and extremely well managed enterprise. it's only a matter of time before it overshadows windows.

whetu

01-06-2002, 11:03 PM

*yawn* you people and your boring lunix/win debates

opinionated git #1 "linux can mow the lawns and feed my cat.. slashdot told me so and they arent at all biased!!!!"

opinionated git #2 "lunix this lunix that none of the ms rubbish.. ms is evil and wants your soul for their breakfast spreads... what do you want to do today mr gates? oh.. your soul on my toast will be fine... LOL GRARGLE AT MS... I MEAN M$ LOL HOW CLEAVER DO YOU GET IT! M$ ROFLGARGLE"

opinionated git#3 "have you lunix freaks ever been able to talk to a female human being?"

opinionated git#4 "tahts it! mr torvaldes *praise be all that is mighty mr lunis my god, master and overlord. the creator of all that we know today. plus he likes lamingtons and i like lamingtons so I AM LIKE LUNIS!!!* anyways, mr torvaldes will release his army of robot penguins to kill you all m$ scum!!!!"

smartyman #1 "this is why i hate lunix, i'm smart and use BSD"

opinionated git #4 "take that back you prick! lunix buttered my toast this morning!"

smartyman #1 " www.linuxisforb1tches.com (www.linuxisfor*****es.com) " (you'll have to replace the 1 with an i.. it works but the auto word replacer got the bizich part)

opinionated git#3 "lol!!! take that lunix boys"

and it goes on and on and on
1) its an OS, get over it
2) if it does what you want to do, kewl biscuits for you.
3) like organised religion, i dont care how much you love it, but try to enforce it upon me and i'm going to get pissed. this is one reason i dislike the lunix community.. they are always going around saying how it will save your life... haha at them.. they need to get a life first

4) the debate will never stop, just like creation/evolution debates
5) will you lunix people STOP SAYING MS IS COMMUNIST - ffs.. they are the pinnacle of capitalism... i have heard this comparison so many times its not funny

KingJackal

01-06-2002, 11:16 PM

Originally posted by whetu
smartyman #1 " www.linuxisforb1tches.com (www.linuxisfor*****es.com) " (you'll have to replace the 1 with an i.. it works but the auto word replacer got the bizich part)

Hey - he mocks teh VRML!! On teh LUsers pagez0r - He = teh VRML mock!! Arrggg kikikiki!!

I supos teh JScpr1pt ( haha - use 1 for i - /m3 1337 haha ) he is liking, not teh CSS as it should be! HE be getting DEADINGS from me! Hahaha - HIS MOMA!!!

[/rant]

LOL man, nice <RANT> :D

mmm - toast.... ( XP just buttered me a slice ;) )

whetu

01-06-2002, 11:22 PM

hehehe

http://www.somethingawful.com/article.php?id=128

enjoy :D

Gh0s7 L3mUr

01-06-2002, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by mird-OC
linux is the future, no doubt. the whole linux institution is, and has been for a number of years, moving from a large group of enthusiasts twiddling around in their spare time, into a tightly run, profitable, efficient, and extremely well managed enterprise. it's only a matter of time before it overshadows windows.

Well put mird

KJ- What I think p01s0n_p1e meant by millions of devs is that there are million (if not then certainly hundreds of thousands) of developers who are in some way working on furthering the Linux project. Of course they all don't work for the distros, that is the point, they don't have to. Anyone can become a Linux g0d if they choose, because the sourse is right there.
And as far as millions of devs being a bad thing. You ask any security pro what things would be like without deversity.
*Imagines everyone using outlook... shudders*
You have to admit that that is what developers want. Otherwise M$ wouldn't have had to relax (in typical M$ fashion the user agreement has gone from 6783 pages to 6781 :rolleyes: ) their user agreement with developers for the source code. And even then M$ only release a certain amount. It is funny that this was done after one of the execs at M$ said in a speach that Linux and open source were "viral".
I personally beleave that there is a place in the world for both sides. But I also think that M$ realize that their time as a monopoly in the desktop os market is limited, which is why they are at present devoting so much time trying to crack/create new revenue paths for themselves ie. security (lol), internet access (scary... can anyone else see a future where you have to pay a monthly/yearly subscription in order to have a "passport")

/friendly rant

*this is fun* :D

Geek4Life

01-06-2002, 11:25 PM

whetu

01-06-2002, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Geek4Life

Would be good to have the expletive remover not work for urls

yeah.. i even tried [ url=www.linuxisfor*****es.com ] www.linuxisfor*****es.com [ /url ]

and it still caught it out.. a bit excessive if you ask me...

KingJackal

01-06-2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by Gh0s7 L3mUr
And as far as millions of devs being a bad thing. You ask any security pro what things would be like without deversity.
*Imagines everyone using outlook... shudders*
You have to admit that that is what developers want.

The above appears to make no sense whatsoever. What does the number of outlook users and diversity have to do with developement team size?

It is entirely possible for everyone to use a single security algorithm, and it to still be secure. I don't see how you could think otherwise - do you have any proof?

And you guys are still missing the simple truths about version control management.

Humantuckshop

02-06-2002, 12:11 AM

Originally posted by KingJackal

mmm - toast.... ( XP just buttered me a slice ;) )

Did the 'Making Toast' Wizard help with that? :p

Gh0s7 L3mUr

02-06-2002, 12:12 AM

Originally posted by whetu

yeah.. i even tried [ url=www.linuxisfor*****es.com ] www.linuxisfor*****es.com [ /url ]

and it still caught it out.. a bit excessive if you ask me...

You would think that because it's in the middle of a larger word (well url) that it wouldn't be picked up.

That icon he has on the site is a classic :D LMAO

KingJackal

02-06-2002, 12:21 AM

The VB censor is ( as eluded by Doogie ;) ) just a good old regular expression parser - 'nix styl3z :D.

In other words, it just goes through the characters in you post one by one, and if any of those characters in a row form a ban-word, BANG - *p00f* ;)

Gh0s7 L3mUr

02-06-2002, 12:28 AM

Back on the topic of gaming and directX for Linux.
I don't think game developers will continue to make games for Linux if people don't buy them.
What was the name of that company that was set up to port Windows games to Linux, and they even had a profit sharing agreements with the game developers. But the company went broke coz no one was buying the games?

Solid Snake

02-06-2002, 11:34 AM

Well let's look at this way. Let's comparing development teams with mod tems. I've worked as a mod co-leader and a mod member... anyways. The more people you hire the faster work gets right? Yes and no... more work IS produced but so much time is needed to get everything working together. Imagine a whole bunch of graphics slapped together, and each had it's own style of drawing [cartoon, photo ... da da]. It JUST doesn't work.

I agree with KJ on the whole Linux vs Windows. Every dislikes M$, but we all use his products because in the end, drivers & products use it ...

Linux isn't even a M$ competitor, it doesn't have the appeal to the average home user, ask your grandma:

'Whats Windows XP" and she'll say, "It's some new fangled computer thing". You ask "What's Linux" ... she'll say "What? What are you on about ... out foul words!!!!" ...and then ... ahem...

... so even with millions of developers, the project will get somewhere but they don't have the resources & money to make Linux an all powerful competitor against M$. And IF Linux was so popular, I'll betcha everyone who inputted something will want $$$ and be bs's like the few people at M$ ... [Some M$ engineers & coders ARE friendly ....]

mird-OC

02-06-2002, 02:09 PM

some of you guys seem to be missing the point. i don't believe linux is the messiah or anything like that, it's just that the Linux Project has SO much potential.

linux has only just started to even attempt to be a competitor to MS... and like i said earlier, it's just a matter of time. due to the methodology and mentality that is the basis of the linux project, there is absolutely no way it can't succeed... unless microsoft decides to drop all their license agreements, adopt open-source, and re-release all their software under GPL :)

Solid Snake

02-06-2002, 04:33 PM

It'll be judgement day when that comes :)

Genesis

02-06-2002, 04:45 PM

Originally posted by mird-OC
unless microsoft decides to drop all their license agreements, adopt open-source, and re-release all their software under GPL :)

HA! That would be the day..

In my opinion someone has to take over the spotlight in the OS world, and its looking very likely it could be Linux.. but this in the VERY VERY VERY VERY distant future.. ;)

Sydog

02-06-2002, 04:56 PM

Like he said, I doubt it will happen in the near future. Unless they make it a hell of a lot like Windows, the mainstream user won't want it as it is a change, and people don't like change

Geek4Life

02-06-2002, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by KingJackal
The VB censor is ( as eluded by Doogie ;) ) just a good old regular expression parser - 'nix styl3z :D.

In other words, it just goes through the characters in you post one by one, and if any of those characters in a row form a ban-word, BANG - *p00f* ;)
It would be ideal to have it so that the text in the post got changed but when you click the link it still took you to the actual site.

Sydog

02-06-2002, 06:19 PM

Alot of forums allow you to change the word, eg change sh1t to sh*t or somehting and not just completely blanking it out

NNA2m

02-06-2002, 06:24 PM

Here we go! :D

So as *I* was saying... :D

1) millions of dev's for Linux.

No, you obviously don't know what you're talking about there. Last time I looked at the stats, the number of dev's working on most distibutions is in the double digits. And I don't mean the high end. Many Linux distro's are only maintained by 10-20 core developers.

2) millions of dev's is a good thing.

Yes, it is. More coders = more code!
More competition will push up the standard, with Linux dev teams in competition with each other to produce a better product.

3) MS devs working 8 hour days.

That exageration for you :D

4) Happy people produce better code.

You fool! Thats not what I'm saying! If are making something because you want to you want to make it as well as you can, otherwaise theres no goddamn point! If your working for money you can do the minimum possible and still get paid! THATS WHY COMMUNISM DOESNT WORK!

5) MS emplyees will only appear to be working.

When the hell did I say that?

6) These 'millions' are just as skillful as any MS dev.

They make up for skill by numbers, plus I bet a lot of them are just as skilled if not more so!

7) Linux dev's work for free.

A lot do. It's called 'FREE TIME'. The fact that some don't is irrelevant.

"Dude, you need to re-think a few key areas.... "
:D Yeah, you're right on that, but don't think you quite understand what I'm saying...

p01s0n_p1e

02-06-2002, 08:32 PM

ooooooooo
you mocked teh king jackel.........
*stands back in awe*
i honestly must say, there are differances between windows and lunix, however they are both better than the macOs.....
linix will become better in time as more people become fed up with m$'s ability to charge money for more things, but some will ditch computers all together, some will go to mac's and some will go to linux.

also, i dont really think you can relate microsoft to communism...

(btw, yes i was playing snowboard kids on my n64 at the time nna2m used my account to post his thoughts.....dont ask ok, just dont ask)

KingJackal

02-06-2002, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by NNA2m
2) millions of dev's is a good thing.

Yes, it is. More coders = more code!
More competition will push up the standard, with Linux dev teams in competition with each other to produce a better product.

More code is not a good thing. Quality not quanitity. Quality ALONE is the basis for the recent shift to XP ( NOT the OS ) and RUP within the developement community.

4) Happy people produce better code.

You fool! Thats not what I'm saying! If are making something because you want to you want to make it as well as you can, otherwaise theres no goddamn point! If your working for money you can do the minimum possible and still get paid! THATS WHY COMMUNISM DOESNT WORK!

Ummm - read that again.... I think you mean CAPITALISM ( everything based purely around the monetary return on the action ). NO - wait! Capitalism IS the one that seems to be working... :eek: :p

5) MS emplyees will only appear to be working.

When the hell did I say that?

That's what people do when they do what you said above. They don't dig it in, they just try and look like they're working. Woulda thought that was obvious...

6) These 'millions' are just as skillful as any MS dev.

They make up for skill by numbers, plus I bet a lot of them are just as skilled if not more so!

No, again - quality not quantity.

And you still don't seem to understand software configuration management. Do you know what it even IS? Would you like an explanation?
:confused:

NNA2m

02-06-2002, 10:37 PM

OK. Here goes :D

More code is not a good thing. Quality not quanitity. Quality ALONE is the basis for the recent shift to XP ( NOT the OS ) and RUP within the developement community.

Grrrrrrrrrr! More code = more competition (for other dev teams)
If other people are competing you are going to have to raise the standard of you work to beat them!

Ummm - read that again.... I think you mean CAPITALISM ( everything based purely around the monetary return on the action ). NO - wait! Capitalism IS the one that seems to be working...

No, communism doesn't work because there is a set standard and if you do more than the standard you still get payed the same! With capatalism you get paid more if you produce more!
The people in Microsoft can't really be compared directly to communists however, because if they do more work they get bonuses, promotions etc. The people at M$ are achieving a standard, and then doing a little more, whereas the unpaid dev's are doing the best they can because they want to. If its a lot more effort to do the absolute best then they will be more likely to do it.

That's what people do when they do what you said above. They don't dig it in, they just try and look like they're working. Woulda thought that was obvious...

No! They work only have to work the minimum! Some may do more, but that irrelevant to my point!

No, again - quality not quantity.

Quantity in this context will LEAD TO quality!

And you still don't seem to understand software configuration management. Do you know what it even IS? Would you like an explanation?

No, but I think I have an idea of what your getting at here... :D
Make the explanation brief please... :D

NNA2m

02-06-2002, 10:59 PM

OK, lets for a minute assume that you mean troubles over logistics, communication etc in these dev teams.

Is that a valid point?
Yes.

Is it a major issue for teams of this sort?
Yes.

Does it affect the original arguement?
No.

Look at it this way: The people who are making the actual Linux OS's are actual, most likely paid, teams, and are not going to have this issue. The people who will have this issue are small teams making some sh1zzat, spread out over the entire world.
The people who really matter are the large amount of INDIVIDUALS putting there own stuff up for other people to use.

Or something like that. Please clear this up. :D

KingJackal

02-06-2002, 11:24 PM

Wages work differently in the states. Most people actually earn as much ( sometimes more ) off commision/tips/bonuses than they do off salary. That's why I don't think MS workers will be just doing the minimum. Plus I've read/seen plenty of articles/documentaries/etc about MS, and they sooo don't slack off.... :eek:

Software Configuation Management

Software Configuation Management is where you have a single code-base which is normally stored in a central repository. This code-base is being changed in dozens of parts by dozens of people concurrently.

However, the parts all rely on each other, so if you change something the wrong way, software can fall over much like a pack of dominoes. Software Configuration Management packages ensure that all code is of the latest revision and that no code is changed that will cause the system to fall over.

Only it's a lot harder than it sounds....

Lots of small teams competing

Even if lots of competition does spur quality, that doesn't really help the Linux groups, which are far smaller and far less coordinated than MS ( not to mention they're often part-timers ).

A small team of 10-20 people just COULD NOT even think of coding something like Windows 2000/XP. It's not an issue - to even think of it is a joke.

There are so many millions of lines of code in a vast piece of software like Windows that to comprehend it takes hundreds of people. OK, so it's possible you could do it with less people in more time - but the code would then be obsolete before completion.

Consider the following example:

Team X make kernals. Their current kernal is pretty fast, but that's all they do.

Team Y make an OpenGL graphics API wrapper for the kernal, allowing it to render a scene in realtime. That's all they do.

Now you would think that you should be able to just plug these in, but life is never so simple. For starters, both teams would have needed to have followed ( and not messed up once ) design by contract principles to the letter. Also, both teams' code would need excellent interfaces, and would also require top-notch documnetation.

Even in that perfect scenario, there is still the possibility of errors in integration by another group that don't understand the code of either team X or team Y. As a result, reliability and compatibility suffer immensely - just like we currently have with Linux ( Windows supports more hardware. It's that simple, Windows will work, Linux may. ).

...the problem is that all three of these teams need to be managed and overseen by the same managers, and need to communicating freely. While that may happen to some extent in the Linux community, they'll NEVER achieve the same level of cooperation as a software house like MS, where devs can just yell down the hall....

Viper_NZ

03-06-2002, 12:09 AM

*Notes Whetu's *neutral* posts always take the windows side & diss Linux*

Linux is getting better all the time. If all games came out with Linux support I would have NO reason to use windows.

Gh0s7 L3mUr

03-06-2002, 12:32 AM

I can't believe this....

What is an OS? A mean of man communicating with machine?

Would you people have this debate/flame war over English vs French?

Too use the language analogy, there are just some things you can't say in English (ie. deja vu) and there are things which you can't say in French (F**k). There are many languages for a reason. Starters life would be very dull without deversity. Secondly they each have pros and cons which others do not, and therefore a place on this planet.

OSs are the same. Windows, Linux, BSD, even AtheOS all have things going for them and things against them. If it was possible to combine all the good things from all of them into one package don't you think Uncle Bill would have done it by now. But it's not possible because we are all different with different needs, desires and priorities.

In conculsions: Try them all objectively and then deside which is best for you. :)

BTW Isn't this supposed to be a thread about "yippie a few more decent games on teh Linux"?

NNA2m

03-06-2002, 03:41 PM

Well, I'm rapidly getting bored with this arguement, not to mention the fact that I forsee myself getting out of my depth in the near future :D, so I'll finish off by saying:

As far as I can see, there is no reason NOT to get Linux, due to the fact that it is 'free', whereas WindowsX costs money.

So, buy Windows and download Linux! There, everyones happy! :D

:Ddebate/flame war

And hey! That was a serious debate! :D

Gh0s7 L3mUr

03-06-2002, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by NNA2m

And hey! That was a serious debate! :D

I know :)

It's just I too was growing tired of it. Seems like one of those topics that flare up ocassionally that no one can resist.

nomad[32]

03-06-2002, 09:27 PM

hehe :) back on topic.......

I use linux for EVERYTHING apart from the odd game that won't run in wine.

Openoffice, mozilla, gaim, mplayer, wine (winex), gimp, it is all sweet :) as good as windows if not better ;)

Linux IS better than Windows IF you know how to use it. I'm not saying windows is bad, in fact, I agree that it is on the whole a bit easier to use.... but that is changing.

MP3/divx/libavcodec and general video encoding runs twice as fast under linux than in windows for me :) now if that's not better... :P

Gaming, I can run almost all games. Max Payne, Counter-Strike (Halflife), Civilization 3, Unreal Tournament, Quake 3, RTCW........ they all run fine.

theYANK

17-06-2002, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Gh0s7 L3mUr
...and there are things which you can't say in French (F**k).
Actually you can. Encouler!

varkk

17-06-2002, 03:45 PM

and the verb "baiser" wich translates to "To #*&k"
as in the french film they want to ban called Baise Moi

You can say anything in any language if you know how to use it, it is just some languages have convenient terms for certain things which others don't(kinda of like windows has directx and linux has other things)

Volodkovich

19-06-2002, 08:07 PM

OK then..what happens when they bring out a closed source version of linux. Im damn sure its gonna happen - heaps of companies are now switching over to linux as they are annoyed with M$'s ****to licensing agreements. Is linux gonna take over then?

varkk

19-06-2002, 08:41 PM

Linux is built on technology released under the GNU public license, one of the terms of this license is that anything developed using stuff released under the license must be released under the same license. This means that for someone to release a 'closed' linux they would have to write it from scratch. Also with so many distributions to choose from, the community will stay well clear of a closed distribution so it will have a very hard time taking off.

Also I have stayed away from talking about commercial Unix systems available

Volodkovich

19-06-2002, 10:52 PM

im not talking about the community, im talking about the public, and the working community. Soon people are going to realise Windows is actually crapola, and turn to linux. As soon as this happens, its gonna be all good as linux will become popular, and most games would be released on windows and linux. This is my idea n e way, im pretty sure its gonna happen :)

whetu

19-06-2002, 11:33 PM

volo.. you have some pretty stuffed up misconceptions...

start here:
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html

then flourish into unbiasedness and clear thought

Volodkovich

19-06-2002, 11:43 PM

wat, so u dont think there will be ANY closed source linux variations? surely M$ cant be on top for ever.

whetu

19-06-2002, 11:49 PM

i didnt say that.. i said read the article

varkk

20-06-2002, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Volodkovich
wat, so u dont think there will be ANY closed source linux variations? surely M$ cant be on top for ever.

Linux can't be closed source, it is in the terms of the GPL, anything developed from things released under GPL must in turn be released under GPL, this means no closed source Linux

Gh0s7 L3mUr

20-06-2002, 12:01 PM

You hit it on the head varkk. The GPL is exactly the same reason why M$ fears Linux so much. Without the GPL they could by up one of the distros release it closed source and throw there marketing power behind it in order to crush all others. Similar to they way they have handled all other competitors. But the GPL licence prevents them from doing this therefore they are for the first time in their history forced to take a competitor on fairly and based on merit.
Now alot of OEMs have had enough of taking the M$ crap and have realized that there is a huge Linux market outthere and so are comming out with there own proprietry flavours. Like HP Linux to the best of my knowledge these distro are only different in that they are already compiled for use on the HP system, similar to how anyone can compile Linux inorder to run best on their particular hardware.

whetu

20-06-2002, 12:19 PM

*starts quoting the article*

Headline: IBM Spends Millions to Develop Open Source Software.

Myth: They're doing this because Lou Gerstner read the GNU Manifesto and decided he doesn't actually like capitalism.

Reality: They're doing this because IBM is becoming an IT consulting company. IT consulting is a complement of enterprise software. Thus IBM needs to commoditize enterprise software, and the best way to do this is by supporting open source. Lo and behold, their consulting division is winning big with this strategy.

Headline: Sun and HP Pay Ximian To Hack on Gnome.

Myth: Sun and HP are supporting free software because they like Bazaars, not Cathedrals.

Reality: Sun and HP are hardware companies. They make boxen. In order to make money on the desktop, they need for windowing systems, which are a complement of desktop computers, to be a commodity. Why don't they take the money they're paying Ximian and use it to develop a proprietary windowing system? They tried this (Sun had NeWS and HP had New Wave), but these are really hardware companies at heart with pretty crude software skills, and they need windowing systems to be a cheap commodity, not a proprietary advantage which they have to pay for. So they hired the nice guys at Ximian to do this for the same reason that Sun bought Star Office and open sourced it: to commoditize software and make more money on hardware.

its a really good article, it goes on about macro and microeconomics, compliments and substitutes etc